Talk:Multi-Mode - Revision history

Skotty: Add my sig

2011-09-07T20:58:48Z

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Skotty: /* From old wiki */ add my own comments on multi-mode in 1v1

2011-09-07T20:58:22Z

From old wiki: add my own comments on multi-mode in 1v1

Robobot: Robobot 0.1 : correcting user page links

2009-05-22T07:44:08Z

Robobot 0.1 : correcting user page links

Voidious: migrating discussion

2009-05-05T19:33:11Z

migrating discussion

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== From old wiki ==

Ok, i'[m gonna cut straight to the with more than one gun, you fire virtual bullets and see which gun works best. With different movements is there a better than trying to count how many bullets teh enemy fired, how many hit and seeing which movement come out with the lowest hit percentage. In my tests this method takes quite a while to pick the best one. I just wanted something faster learning for the roborumble... --[[Brainfade]]

There's no fast way to rate movements I think. But you can do it rather accurately by using something like [[Vuen]]'s CalculatingScore code. [[Swiffer]] does this. Take a look at Swiffer's code if you want to see how it does it. -- [[PEZ]]

I have been toying with the idea of using [[Vuen]]'s CalculatingScore code, but decided i wanted to try and avoid it if possible. By using overall score, i was concerned that a change in gun may mislead the move manager into continuing to use a bad movement or vice versa. I'd have to do some testing to confirm this, but i just wanted to canvas opinion first... --[[Brainfade]]

I'm currently working on something similar...but having a lot of trouble with it.

Hmm, how much is this used any more. I started off making a fully pluggable interface with event listeners, and still use that since it is really easy to develop bots this way, but it seems that most bots now just keep it as concise as possible (probably due to MiniBot and other codesize work). I havent even seen an enemy class in the sources ive looked at. In some ways this is very good, because it means that our movement and targetings are much more multipurpose and addaptible on their own, but does anyone have a multimode system in place in their robots? -- [[Jokester]]

UnderDark3 makes use of a Learning Finite-State Machine, which is a multi-mode system that adapts to its current foe --[[UnderDark]]

In fact, most multi-mode multi-guns and multi-movement ideas have failed. That's because it's easier to develop one good general movement than two specialist ones and a system that would wisely choose between them. The last realy successful attempt at movement was MusashiTrick, yet it was an easy one. Also [[Krabb]] and GrubbmGait keep trying at this. But comparing their effort with the outcoming rankings, I would say that the multi-mode idea failed them too. --[[lRem]]

You make a good point. From how I see it, we have two systems of targeting and movement, both of which play off the alternative opposite section. For targeting there is PatternMatching and GuessFactorTargeting, while in movement we have RandomMovement and WaveSurfing. WaveSurfing pretty soundly beats all lesser targeting methods and some of the best GuessFactorTargeting guns, but is vulnerable to PatternMatchers. Truly RandomMovement defeats PatternMatchers but is vulnerable to GuessFactorTargeting. I feel that there is something out there more effective than RandomMovement against PatternMatchers, but that is currently one of the best systems. Where current Movement and Targeting is going is trying to combine the two methods into one, but a bot which can effectively use the 4 will be highly effective for the time being. With regards to which we will combine first, my money is currently on the targeting side. There has not been enough work with AntiPatternMatching strategies, while there are several targeting techniques that are starting to combine the two. In the beginning there was a fairly wide array of FastTargeting systems, designed to both work as LogTargeting systems (PatternMatching) and StatisticalTargeting systems. Movement strategies were still pattern oriented, and so the development of PatternMatchers became more widespread. RandomMovement came about to defeat that, and so the StatisticalTargeting came to the front. While WaveSurfing is quite effective against StatisticalTargeting, where it really comes to the front is its ability to defeat lesser targeting methods and get those scores up. -- [[Jokester]]

It seems that multi-movement only has sortof a future in melee, although a good movement should be capable of handling both [[Melee]] and OneOnOne. The Stop'nGo movement is quite satisfying against simple targetters, but lacks the simplicity of the MusashiTrick, and again, a good movement should be capable of avoiding the simple targetters aswell. For multi-guns I only see a purpose as starting-gun, until the heavy PM or GF gun kicks in. -- [[GrubbmGait]]

I second [[lRem]]'s statement on why more great bots aren't using seriously [[MultiMode]] concepts - aside from obvious things like using different techniques in melee and one-on-one, it just hasn't proven to be more effective. It's really quite hard to make one good movement as it is, but making several useful different movements is harder than almost anything except choosing between them. I'd also add, however, that I believe (as I have said elsewhere on the wiki) that [[MiniBot]] development was part of the reason we started to realize that [[MultiMode]] wasn't the answer to all our problems.

Also, I think it may be more a myth that [[WaveSurfing]] is weak against [[PatternMatching]]. Sure, it may be ''particularly'' good against [[GuessFactorTargeting]], and there could be better movements against [[PatternMatching]], but flat movement doesn't have to be easy against [[PatternMatching]] (on the contrary, it makes it less likely to just get lucky). -- [[Kawigi]]

IMO, multimode is perfectly viable, but WaveSurfing is better. If you can't fit WaveSurfing (eg. in a Mini, Micro or Nano) the MultiMode is the only effective solution. The MusashiTrick effectively handles HOT, but StopAndGo is effective agains HOT, LT and CT so would be preferable. This switching to RandomMovement seems to be the current movement of choice. -- [[Skilgannon]]

* StopAndGo is effective against HOT? *hurries and makes a few changes to [[Evader]]'s and Lasers's code for the StopAndGo =)* But back to the topic, IMHO multimode would be better with like melee than 1v1. (especially if you save data in 1v1!). Unless in 1v1 you're facing a multimode...--[[Starrynte]]

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:58, 7 September 2011
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	* StopAndGo is effective against HOT? hurries and makes a few changes to [[Evader]]'s and Lasers's code for the StopAndGo =) But back to the topic, IMHO multimode would be better with like melee than 1v1. (especially if you save data in 1v1!). Unless in 1v1 you're facing a multimode...--[[User:Starrynte\|Starrynte]]		* StopAndGo is effective against HOT? hurries and makes a few changes to [[Evader]]'s and Lasers's code for the StopAndGo =) But back to the topic, IMHO multimode would be better with like melee than 1v1. (especially if you save data in 1v1!). Unless in 1v1 you're facing a multimode...--[[User:Starrynte\|Starrynte]]

−	I know this is an old conversation, but in time I hope to prove that a good multi-mode implementation can work well in 1v1. I still have a lot of work to do on my guess factor gun and wave surfing drive before [[XanderCat]] will be considered a top robot, but I think it has already proved a value to mult-mode in 1v1 for it's anti-mirror drive and anti-mirror gun. There aren't really that many mirroring robots in the competition, but my anti-mirror drive and gun provide a good score boost against mirrors, and my rather simple mirror detector rarely ever incorrectly identifies a mirror as not-mirroring or a non-mirror as mirroring, and I know it could be improved even further (it's just been working so well already, I have been focusing on other problems).	+	I know this is an old conversation, but in time I hope to prove that a good multi-mode implementation can work well in 1v1. I still have a lot of work to do on my guess factor gun and wave surfing drive before [[XanderCat]] will be considered a top robot, but I think it has already proved a value to mult-mode in 1v1 for it's anti-mirror drive and anti-mirror gun. There aren't really that many mirroring robots in the competition, but my anti-mirror drive and gun provide a good score boost against mirrors, and my rather simple mirror detector rarely ever incorrectly identifies a mirror as not-mirroring or a non-mirror as mirroring, and I know it could be improved even further (it's just been working so well already, I have been focusing on other problems). -- [[User:Skotty\|Skotty]] 20:58, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:58, 7 September 2011
Line 26:		Line 26:

	* StopAndGo is effective against HOT? hurries and makes a few changes to [[Evader]]'s and Lasers's code for the StopAndGo =) But back to the topic, IMHO multimode would be better with like melee than 1v1. (especially if you save data in 1v1!). Unless in 1v1 you're facing a multimode...--[[User:Starrynte\|Starrynte]]		* StopAndGo is effective against HOT? hurries and makes a few changes to [[Evader]]'s and Lasers's code for the StopAndGo =) But back to the topic, IMHO multimode would be better with like melee than 1v1. (especially if you save data in 1v1!). Unless in 1v1 you're facing a multimode...--[[User:Starrynte\|Starrynte]]
		+
		+	I know this is an old conversation, but in time I hope to prove that a good multi-mode implementation can work well in 1v1. I still have a lot of work to do on my guess factor gun and wave surfing drive before [[XanderCat]] will be considered a top robot, but I think it has already proved a value to mult-mode in 1v1 for it's anti-mirror drive and anti-mirror gun. There aren't really that many mirroring robots in the competition, but my anti-mirror drive and gun provide a good score boost against mirrors, and my rather simple mirror detector rarely ever incorrectly identifies a mirror as not-mirroring or a non-mirror as mirroring, and I know it could be improved even further (it's just been working so well already, I have been focusing on other problems).

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
 == From old wiki ==
-Ok, i'[m gonna cut straight to the with more than one gun, you fire virtual bullets and see which gun works best. With different movements is there a better than trying to count how many bullets teh enemy fired, how many hit and seeing which movement come out with the lowest hit percentage. In my tests this method takes quite a while to pick the best one. I just wanted something faster learning for the roborumble... --[[Brainfade]]
+Ok, i'[m gonna cut straight to the with more than one gun, you fire virtual bullets and see which gun works best. With different movements is there a better than trying to count how many bullets teh enemy fired, how many hit and seeing which movement come out with the lowest hit percentage. In my tests this method takes quite a while to pick the best one. I just wanted something faster learning for the roborumble... --[[User:Brainfade|Brainfade]]
-There's no fast way to rate movements I think. But you can do it rather accurately by using something like [[Vuen]]'s CalculatingScore code. [[Swiffer]] does this. Take a look at Swiffer's code if you want to see how it does it. -- [[PEZ]]
+There's no fast way to rate movements I think. But you can do it rather accurately by using something like [[User:Vuen|Vuen]]'s CalculatingScore code. [[Swiffer]] does this. Take a look at Swiffer's code if you want to see how it does it. -- [[User:PEZ|PEZ]]
-I have been toying with the idea of using [[Vuen]]'s CalculatingScore code, but decided i wanted to try and avoid it if possible. By using overall score, i was concerned that a change in gun may mislead the move manager into continuing to use a bad movement or vice versa. I'd have to do some testing to confirm this, but i just wanted to canvas opinion first... --[[Brainfade]]
+I have been toying with the idea of using [[User:Vuen|Vuen]]'s CalculatingScore code, but decided i wanted to try and avoid it if possible. By using overall score, i was concerned that a change in gun may mislead the move manager into continuing to use a bad movement or vice versa. I'd have to do some testing to confirm this, but i just wanted to canvas opinion first... --[[User:Brainfade|Brainfade]]
 I'm currently working on something similar...but having a lot of trouble with it.
@@ Line 13: / Line 13: @@
 UnderDark3 makes use of a Learning Finite-State Machine, which is a multi-mode system that adapts to its current foe --[[UnderDark]]
-In fact, most multi-mode multi-guns and multi-movement ideas have failed. That's because it's easier to develop one good general movement than two specialist ones and a system that would wisely choose between them. The last realy successful attempt at movement was MusashiTrick, yet it was an easy one. Also [[Krabb]] and GrubbmGait keep trying at this. But comparing their effort with the outcoming rankings, I would say that the multi-mode idea failed them too. --[[lRem]]
+In fact, most multi-mode multi-guns and multi-movement ideas have failed. That's because it's easier to develop one good general movement than two specialist ones and a system that would wisely choose between them. The last realy successful attempt at movement was MusashiTrick, yet it was an easy one. Also [[User:Krabb|Krabb]] and GrubbmGait keep trying at this. But comparing their effort with the outcoming rankings, I would say that the multi-mode idea failed them too. --[[lRem]]
 You make a good point.  From how I see it, we have two systems of targeting and movement, both of which play off the alternative opposite section. For targeting there is PatternMatching and GuessFactorTargeting, while in movement we have RandomMovement and WaveSurfing.  WaveSurfing pretty soundly beats all lesser targeting methods and some of the best GuessFactorTargeting guns, but is vulnerable to PatternMatchers.  Truly RandomMovement defeats PatternMatchers but is vulnerable to GuessFactorTargeting.  I feel that there is something out there more effective than RandomMovement against PatternMatchers, but that is currently one of the best systems.  Where current Movement and Targeting is going is trying to combine the two methods into one, but a bot which can effectively use the 4 will be highly effective for the time being.  With regards to which we will combine first, my money is currently on the targeting side.  There has not been enough work with AntiPatternMatching strategies, while there are several targeting techniques that are starting to combine the two.  In the beginning there was a fairly wide array of FastTargeting systems, designed to both work as LogTargeting systems (PatternMatching) and StatisticalTargeting systems.  Movement strategies were still pattern oriented, and so the development of PatternMatchers became more widespread.  RandomMovement came about to defeat that, and so the StatisticalTargeting came to the front. While WaveSurfing is quite effective against StatisticalTargeting, where it really comes to the front is its ability to defeat lesser targeting methods and get those scores up. -- [[Jokester]]
-It seems that multi-movement only has sortof a future in melee, although a good movement should be capable of handling both [[Melee]] and OneOnOne. The Stop'nGo movement is quite satisfying against simple targetters, but lacks the simplicity of the MusashiTrick, and again, a good movement should be capable of avoiding the simple targetters aswell. For multi-guns I only see a purpose as starting-gun, until the heavy PM or GF gun kicks in. -- [[GrubbmGait]]
+It seems that multi-movement only has sortof a future in melee, although a good movement should be capable of handling both [[Melee]] and OneOnOne. The Stop'nGo movement is quite satisfying against simple targetters, but lacks the simplicity of the MusashiTrick, and again, a good movement should be capable of avoiding the simple targetters aswell. For multi-guns I only see a purpose as starting-gun, until the heavy PM or GF gun kicks in. -- [[User:GrubbmGait|GrubbmGait]]
 I second [[lRem]]'s statement on why more great bots aren't using seriously [[MultiMode]] concepts - aside from obvious things like using different techniques in melee and one-on-one, it just hasn't proven to be more effective.  It's really quite hard to make one good movement as it is, but making several useful different movements is harder than almost anything except choosing between them.  I'd also add, however, that I believe (as I have said elsewhere on the wiki) that [[MiniBot]] development was part of the reason we started to realize that [[MultiMode]] wasn't the answer to all our problems.
-Also, I think it may be more a myth that [[WaveSurfing]] is weak against [[PatternMatching]].  Sure, it may be ''particularly'' good against [[GuessFactorTargeting]], and there could be better movements against [[PatternMatching]], but flat movement doesn't have to be easy against [[PatternMatching]] (on the contrary, it makes it less likely to just get lucky). -- [[Kawigi]]
+Also, I think it may be more a myth that [[WaveSurfing]] is weak against [[PatternMatching]].  Sure, it may be ''particularly'' good against [[GuessFactorTargeting]], and there could be better movements against [[PatternMatching]], but flat movement doesn't have to be easy against [[PatternMatching]] (on the contrary, it makes it less likely to just get lucky). -- [[User:Kawigi|Kawigi]]
-IMO, multimode is perfectly viable, but WaveSurfing is better. If you can't fit WaveSurfing (eg. in a Mini, Micro or Nano) the MultiMode is the only effective solution. The MusashiTrick effectively handles HOT, but StopAndGo is effective agains HOT, LT and CT so would be preferable. This switching to RandomMovement seems to be the current movement of choice. -- [[Skilgannon]]
+IMO, multimode is perfectly viable, but WaveSurfing is better. If you can't fit WaveSurfing (eg. in a Mini, Micro or Nano) the MultiMode is the only effective solution. The MusashiTrick effectively handles HOT, but StopAndGo is effective agains HOT, LT and CT so would be preferable. This switching to RandomMovement seems to be the current movement of choice. -- [[User:Skilgannon|Skilgannon]]
-* StopAndGo is effective against HOT? *hurries and makes a few changes to [[Evader]]'s and Lasers's code for the StopAndGo =)* But back to the topic, IMHO multimode would be better with like melee than 1v1. (especially if you save data in 1v1!). Unless in 1v1 you're facing a multimode...--[[Starrynte]]
+* StopAndGo is effective against HOT? *hurries and makes a few changes to [[Evader]]'s and Lasers's code for the StopAndGo =)* But back to the topic, IMHO multimode would be better with like melee than 1v1. (especially if you save data in 1v1!). Unless in 1v1 you're facing a multimode...--[[User:Starrynte|Starrynte]]