Talk:Watermelon/Development - Revision history

Miked0801: /* Mirrorbots and a means by which they can be defeated */

2009-06-17T21:15:06Z

Mirrorbots and a means by which they can be defeated

Synapse: /* Mirrorbots and a means by which they can be defeated */ Good tip. Sign your work!

2009-06-17T17:09:41Z

Mirrorbots and a means by which they can be defeated: Good tip. Sign your work!

Miked0801: /* Mirrorbots and a means by which they can be defeated */

2009-06-17T17:00:17Z

Mirrorbots and a means by which they can be defeated

Miked0801: /* Mirrorbots and a means by which they can be defeated */ - pretty straight forward.

2009-06-17T16:59:13Z

Mirrorbots and a means by which they can be defeated: - pretty straight forward.

Synapse: /* Mirrorbots and a means by which they can be defeated */

2009-06-17T15:50:50Z

Mirrorbots and a means by which they can be defeated

Nat: /* Mirrorbots and a means by which they can be defeated */ sittingduck with Miror; prevent getting to mirror point?

2009-06-17T14:41:52Z

Mirrorbots and a means by which they can be defeated: sittingduck with Miror; prevent getting to mirror point?

Rednaxela: /* Mirrorbots and a means by which they can be defeated */ fix spelling

2009-06-17T13:24:58Z

Mirrorbots and a means by which they can be defeated: fix spelling

Rednaxela: Dualist-style not sufficent. How to make a surfing anti-mirror.

2009-06-17T13:23:31Z

Dualist-style not sufficent. How to make a surfing anti-mirror.

Nat: /* Mirrorbots and a means by which they can be defeated */ DavePantedAntiMirrorTargeting, or whatever it call

2009-06-17T12:56:33Z

Mirrorbots and a means by which they can be defeated: DavePantedAntiMirrorTargeting, or whatever it call

Rednaxela: /* Mirrorbots and a means by which they can be defeated */ old wiki page, not just targeting

2009-06-17T12:39:25Z

Mirrorbots and a means by which they can be defeated: old wiki page, not just targeting

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 Thanks for the excellent information, guys! I wonder if we could generalize the solution a bit. What if I generate a transformation matrix each turn comparing my averaged movement over the past 5 turns or so with the enemy's averaged movement over the same period? If they're just reflecting my movement into their own, the matrix should stay nearly the same whether they are doing vertical, orbital, or some other kind of reflection. As long as their reflection is consistent, the transformation matrix would reveal that consistency. I could then plan my movement and use the matrix to determine their expected position for firing. -- [[User:Synapse|<font style="font-size:0.8em;font-variant:small-caps;">Synapse</font>]] 15:50, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
-For what it's worth, [[LittleBlackBook]]'s generation code indirectly detects mirroring and makes my bot do its simplest movement (stutter forward orbit) if my gun is better than theirs, or uses my most complex (random) if it's not.  Meaning, if you have a movement pattern you know you can destroy 100% (as in canned aim routine for 99% hit rate) that is random enough to throw off all guns (or at least a 25% hit rate), use it.  Say a random set of 100 movements such that you know exactly where you will be, but the enemy does not.  Instant mirror kills with a 4 to 1 hit rate.
+For what it's worth, [[LittleBlackBook]]'s generation code indirectly detects mirroring and makes my bot do its simplest movement (stutter forward orbit) if my gun is better than theirs, or uses my most complex (random) if it's not.  Meaning, if you have a movement pattern you know you can destroy 100% (as in canned aim routine for 99% hit rate) that is random enough to throw off all guns (or at least a 25% hit rate), use it.  Say a random set of 100 movements such that you know exactly where you will be, but the enemy does not.  Instant mirror kills with a 4 to 1 hit rate. --[[User:Miked0801|Miked0801]] 21:15, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 Sign your work! -- [[User:Synapse|<font style="font-size:0.8em;font-variant:small-caps;">Synapse</font>]] 17:09, 17 June 2009 (UTC) <small><small>PS Good suggestion! I'll continue to pursue the transformation matrix of doom.</small></small>

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:09, 17 June 2009
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	For what it's worth, [[LittleBlackBook]]'s generation code indirectly detects mirroring and makes my bot do its simplest movement (stutter forward orbit) if my gun is better than theirs, or uses my most complex (random) if it's not. Meaning, if you have a movement pattern you know you can destroy 100% (as in canned aim routine for 99% hit rate) that is random enough to throw off all guns (or at least a 25% hit rate), use it. Say a random set of 100 movements such that you know exactly where you will be, but the enemy does not. Instant mirror kills with a 4 to 1 hit rate.		For what it's worth, [[LittleBlackBook]]'s generation code indirectly detects mirroring and makes my bot do its simplest movement (stutter forward orbit) if my gun is better than theirs, or uses my most complex (random) if it's not. Meaning, if you have a movement pattern you know you can destroy 100% (as in canned aim routine for 99% hit rate) that is random enough to throw off all guns (or at least a 25% hit rate), use it. Say a random set of 100 movements such that you know exactly where you will be, but the enemy does not. Instant mirror kills with a 4 to 1 hit rate.
		+
		+	Sign your work! -- [[User:Synapse\|<font style="font-size:0.8em;font-variant:small-caps;">Synapse</font>]] 17:09, 17 June 2009 (UTC) <small><small>PS Good suggestion! I'll continue to pursue the transformation matrix of doom.</small></small>

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:00, 17 June 2009
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	Thanks for the excellent information, guys! I wonder if we could generalize the solution a bit. What if I generate a transformation matrix each turn comparing my averaged movement over the past 5 turns or so with the enemy's averaged movement over the same period? If they're just reflecting my movement into their own, the matrix should stay nearly the same whether they are doing vertical, orbital, or some other kind of reflection. As long as their reflection is consistent, the transformation matrix would reveal that consistency. I could then plan my movement and use the matrix to determine their expected position for firing. -- [[User:Synapse\|<font style="font-size:0.8em;font-variant:small-caps;">Synapse</font>]] 15:50, 17 June 2009 (UTC)		Thanks for the excellent information, guys! I wonder if we could generalize the solution a bit. What if I generate a transformation matrix each turn comparing my averaged movement over the past 5 turns or so with the enemy's averaged movement over the same period? If they're just reflecting my movement into their own, the matrix should stay nearly the same whether they are doing vertical, orbital, or some other kind of reflection. As long as their reflection is consistent, the transformation matrix would reveal that consistency. I could then plan my movement and use the matrix to determine their expected position for firing. -- [[User:Synapse\|<font style="font-size:0.8em;font-variant:small-caps;">Synapse</font>]] 15:50, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

−	For what it's worth, [[LittleBlackBook]]'s generation code indirectly detects mirroring and makes my bot do its simplest movement (stutter forward orbit) if my gun is better than theirs, or uses my most complex (random) if it's not. Meaning, if you have a movement pattern you know you can destroy 100% (as in canned aim routine for 99% hit rate) that is random enough to throw off my guns, use it. Say a random set of 100 movements such that you know exactly where you will be, but the enemy does not. Instant mirror kills.	+	For what it's worth, [[LittleBlackBook]]'s generation code indirectly detects mirroring and makes my bot do its simplest movement (stutter forward orbit) if my gun is better than theirs, or uses my most complex (random) if it's not. Meaning, if you have a movement pattern you know you can destroy 100% (as in canned aim routine for 99% hit rate) that is random enough to throw off all guns (or at least a 25% hit rate), use it. Say a random set of 100 movements such that you know exactly where you will be, but the enemy does not. Instant mirror kills with a 4 to 1 hit rate.

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:59, 17 June 2009
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	Thanks for the excellent information, guys! I wonder if we could generalize the solution a bit. What if I generate a transformation matrix each turn comparing my averaged movement over the past 5 turns or so with the enemy's averaged movement over the same period? If they're just reflecting my movement into their own, the matrix should stay nearly the same whether they are doing vertical, orbital, or some other kind of reflection. As long as their reflection is consistent, the transformation matrix would reveal that consistency. I could then plan my movement and use the matrix to determine their expected position for firing. -- [[User:Synapse\|<font style="font-size:0.8em;font-variant:small-caps;">Synapse</font>]] 15:50, 17 June 2009 (UTC)		Thanks for the excellent information, guys! I wonder if we could generalize the solution a bit. What if I generate a transformation matrix each turn comparing my averaged movement over the past 5 turns or so with the enemy's averaged movement over the same period? If they're just reflecting my movement into their own, the matrix should stay nearly the same whether they are doing vertical, orbital, or some other kind of reflection. As long as their reflection is consistent, the transformation matrix would reveal that consistency. I could then plan my movement and use the matrix to determine their expected position for firing. -- [[User:Synapse\|<font style="font-size:0.8em;font-variant:small-caps;">Synapse</font>]] 15:50, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
		+
		+	For what it's worth, [[LittleBlackBook]]'s generation code indirectly detects mirroring and makes my bot do its simplest movement (stutter forward orbit) if my gun is better than theirs, or uses my most complex (random) if it's not. Meaning, if you have a movement pattern you know you can destroy 100% (as in canned aim routine for 99% hit rate) that is random enough to throw off my guns, use it. Say a random set of 100 movements such that you know exactly where you will be, but the enemy does not. Instant mirror kills.

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:50, 17 June 2009
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	Well, it seem to be rally hard. But I just come up with 2 new ideas. If you have an energy advantage at the point you detect mirroring, then sit still and fire at the full power. It could be work if you haven't got an energy advantage too, since many mirrors does fire at only 2 or so. Second ideas is if you detect mirror last round, then this round you might to some 'preventing mirror to get to the mirror point' movement, if possible. » <span style="font-size:0.9em;color:darkgreen;">[[User:Nat\|Nat]] \| [[User_talk:Nat\|Talk]]</span> » 14:41, 17 June 2009 (UTC)		Well, it seem to be rally hard. But I just come up with 2 new ideas. If you have an energy advantage at the point you detect mirroring, then sit still and fire at the full power. It could be work if you haven't got an energy advantage too, since many mirrors does fire at only 2 or so. Second ideas is if you detect mirror last round, then this round you might to some 'preventing mirror to get to the mirror point' movement, if possible. » <span style="font-size:0.9em;color:darkgreen;">[[User:Nat\|Nat]] \| [[User_talk:Nat\|Talk]]</span> » 14:41, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
		+
		+	Thanks for the excellent information, guys! I wonder if we could generalize the solution a bit. What if I generate a transformation matrix each turn comparing my averaged movement over the past 5 turns or so with the enemy's averaged movement over the same period? If they're just reflecting my movement into their own, the matrix should stay nearly the same whether they are doing vertical, orbital, or some other kind of reflection. As long as their reflection is consistent, the transformation matrix would reveal that consistency. I could then plan my movement and use the matrix to determine their expected position for firing. -- [[User:Synapse\|<font style="font-size:0.8em;font-variant:small-caps;">Synapse</font>]] 15:50, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:41, 17 June 2009
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	A goto surfer doesn't really guarantee it. All goto surfers to my knowledge have provisions to start reacting instantly should extenuing circumstances arise. What the Duelist series alone does isn't sufficent either Nat, because while it guarantees future position for some "x" ticks in the future, "x" may well be less than bullet travel time, thus insufficent to help with anti-mirror. That same issue also affects goto surfing too. What you need to do, is have a way to plan your movement, for however however many ticks bullettraveltime is. You could do this with Dualist-style-movement for instance, if you simply simulate your own movement up to the point you picked, and pick a new point, and buffer these waypoints. You could do this for a simple orbital random movement too, very easily, by simply buffering a series of movement instructions for future ticks. You could even do this with surfing, IF you predict the enemy's future firing (i.e. know when and how powerful the enemy mirror bot will fire in the future), and it's no easier to do it with "go-to" than "true". Either way you have to buffer future movement instructions, and assume you can accurately predict enemy firing timing. Essentially, the trick to an anti-mirror system, is that your bot has to start "living in the future" in it's mind, when it's detected that the enemy is mirroring. --[[User:Rednaxela\|Rednaxela]] 13:23, 17 June 2009 (UTC)		A goto surfer doesn't really guarantee it. All goto surfers to my knowledge have provisions to start reacting instantly should extenuing circumstances arise. What the Duelist series alone does isn't sufficent either Nat, because while it guarantees future position for some "x" ticks in the future, "x" may well be less than bullet travel time, thus insufficent to help with anti-mirror. That same issue also affects goto surfing too. What you need to do, is have a way to plan your movement, for however however many ticks bullettraveltime is. You could do this with Dualist-style-movement for instance, if you simply simulate your own movement up to the point you picked, and pick a new point, and buffer these waypoints. You could do this for a simple orbital random movement too, very easily, by simply buffering a series of movement instructions for future ticks. You could even do this with surfing, IF you predict the enemy's future firing (i.e. know when and how powerful the enemy mirror bot will fire in the future), and it's no easier to do it with "go-to" than "true". Either way you have to buffer future movement instructions, and assume you can accurately predict enemy firing timing. Essentially, the trick to an anti-mirror system, is that your bot has to start "living in the future" in it's mind, when it's detected that the enemy is mirroring. --[[User:Rednaxela\|Rednaxela]] 13:23, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
		+
		+	Well, it seem to be rally hard. But I just come up with 2 new ideas. If you have an energy advantage at the point you detect mirroring, then sit still and fire at the full power. It could be work if you haven't got an energy advantage too, since many mirrors does fire at only 2 or so. Second ideas is if you detect mirror last round, then this round you might to some 'preventing mirror to get to the mirror point' movement, if possible. » <span style="font-size:0.9em;color:darkgreen;">[[User:Nat\|Nat]] \| [[User_talk:Nat\|Talk]]</span> » 14:41, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:24, 17 June 2009
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	I think Duelist series by David Alves all have a truly guarantees future location. If you detect mirror, I think changing to his technique is rather good. He just pick a randomly position (and perpendicular) and set a random number to the timer. Each tick he decrease the timer. When it reach zero it just picks new location. Sound easy, right? I think go-to surfer guarantees it too, just not as accurate as Duelist. I think technique, IIRCm is call DavePantedAntiMirrorTargeting. » <span style="font-size:0.9em;color:darkgreen;">[[User:Nat\|Nat]] \| [[User_talk:Nat\|Talk]]</span> » 12:56, 17 June 2009 (UTC)		I think Duelist series by David Alves all have a truly guarantees future location. If you detect mirror, I think changing to his technique is rather good. He just pick a randomly position (and perpendicular) and set a random number to the timer. Each tick he decrease the timer. When it reach zero it just picks new location. Sound easy, right? I think go-to surfer guarantees it too, just not as accurate as Duelist. I think technique, IIRCm is call DavePantedAntiMirrorTargeting. » <span style="font-size:0.9em;color:darkgreen;">[[User:Nat\|Nat]] \| [[User_talk:Nat\|Talk]]</span> » 12:56, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

−	A goto surfer doesn't really ~~garuntee~~ it. All goto surfers to my knowledge have provisions to start reacting instantly should extenuing circumstances arise. What the Duelist series alone does isn't sufficent either Nat, because while it guarantees future position for some "x" ticks in the future, "x" may well be less than bullet travel time, thus insufficent to help with anti-mirror. That same issue also affects goto surfing too. What you need to do, is have a way to plan your movement, for however however many ticks bullettraveltime is. You could do this with Dualist-style-movement for instance, if you simply simulate your own movement up to the point you picked, and pick a new point, and buffer these waypoints. You could do this for a simple orbital random movement too, very easily, by simply buffering a series of movement instructions for future ticks. You could even do this with surfing, IF you predict the enemy's future firing (i.e. know when and how powerful the enemy mirror bot will fire in the future), and it's no easier to do it with "go-to" than "true". Either way you have to buffer future movement instructions, and assume you can accurately predict enemy firing timing. Essentially, the trick to an anti-mirror system, is that your bot has to start "living in the future" in it's mind, when it's detected that the enemy is mirroring. --[[User:Rednaxela\|Rednaxela]] 13:23, 17 June 2009 (UTC)	+	A goto surfer doesn't really guarantee it. All goto surfers to my knowledge have provisions to start reacting instantly should extenuing circumstances arise. What the Duelist series alone does isn't sufficent either Nat, because while it guarantees future position for some "x" ticks in the future, "x" may well be less than bullet travel time, thus insufficent to help with anti-mirror. That same issue also affects goto surfing too. What you need to do, is have a way to plan your movement, for however however many ticks bullettraveltime is. You could do this with Dualist-style-movement for instance, if you simply simulate your own movement up to the point you picked, and pick a new point, and buffer these waypoints. You could do this for a simple orbital random movement too, very easily, by simply buffering a series of movement instructions for future ticks. You could even do this with surfing, IF you predict the enemy's future firing (i.e. know when and how powerful the enemy mirror bot will fire in the future), and it's no easier to do it with "go-to" than "true". Either way you have to buffer future movement instructions, and assume you can accurately predict enemy firing timing. Essentially, the trick to an anti-mirror system, is that your bot has to start "living in the future" in it's mind, when it's detected that the enemy is mirroring. --[[User:Rednaxela\|Rednaxela]] 13:23, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:23, 17 June 2009
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	I think Duelist series by David Alves all have a truly guarantees future location. If you detect mirror, I think changing to his technique is rather good. He just pick a randomly position (and perpendicular) and set a random number to the timer. Each tick he decrease the timer. When it reach zero it just picks new location. Sound easy, right? I think go-to surfer guarantees it too, just not as accurate as Duelist. I think technique, IIRCm is call DavePantedAntiMirrorTargeting. » <span style="font-size:0.9em;color:darkgreen;">[[User:Nat\|Nat]] \| [[User_talk:Nat\|Talk]]</span> » 12:56, 17 June 2009 (UTC)		I think Duelist series by David Alves all have a truly guarantees future location. If you detect mirror, I think changing to his technique is rather good. He just pick a randomly position (and perpendicular) and set a random number to the timer. Each tick he decrease the timer. When it reach zero it just picks new location. Sound easy, right? I think go-to surfer guarantees it too, just not as accurate as Duelist. I think technique, IIRCm is call DavePantedAntiMirrorTargeting. » <span style="font-size:0.9em;color:darkgreen;">[[User:Nat\|Nat]] \| [[User_talk:Nat\|Talk]]</span> » 12:56, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
		+
		+	A goto surfer doesn't really garuntee it. All goto surfers to my knowledge have provisions to start reacting instantly should extenuing circumstances arise. What the Duelist series alone does isn't sufficent either Nat, because while it guarantees future position for some "x" ticks in the future, "x" may well be less than bullet travel time, thus insufficent to help with anti-mirror. That same issue also affects goto surfing too. What you need to do, is have a way to plan your movement, for however however many ticks bullettraveltime is. You could do this with Dualist-style-movement for instance, if you simply simulate your own movement up to the point you picked, and pick a new point, and buffer these waypoints. You could do this for a simple orbital random movement too, very easily, by simply buffering a series of movement instructions for future ticks. You could even do this with surfing, IF you predict the enemy's future firing (i.e. know when and how powerful the enemy mirror bot will fire in the future), and it's no easier to do it with "go-to" than "true". Either way you have to buffer future movement instructions, and assume you can accurately predict enemy firing timing. Essentially, the trick to an anti-mirror system, is that your bot has to start "living in the future" in it's mind, when it's detected that the enemy is mirroring. --[[User:Rednaxela\|Rednaxela]] 13:23, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:56, 17 June 2009
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	Well there is a segment: "Your own planned movement", of course most bots don't plan their movement in a way that truly guarantees future location. Really, so-called "Anti-Mirror Targeting" (here's the [http://old.robowiki.net/cgi-bin/robowiki?AntiMirrorSystem old wiki page]) isn't just targeting, it's a coordinated targeting/movement system. To see how effective it is, take a look at [http://darkcanuck.net/rumble/RatingsDetails?game=roborumble&name=ags.polished.PolishedRuby%201 this page], and look at the 4 lowest scores there and see how different they are from any others. As you can see, [[User:Axe\|Axe]] really loves anti-mirror ;P --[[User:Rednaxela\|Rednaxela]] 12:39, 17 June 2009 (UTC)		Well there is a segment: "Your own planned movement", of course most bots don't plan their movement in a way that truly guarantees future location. Really, so-called "Anti-Mirror Targeting" (here's the [http://old.robowiki.net/cgi-bin/robowiki?AntiMirrorSystem old wiki page]) isn't just targeting, it's a coordinated targeting/movement system. To see how effective it is, take a look at [http://darkcanuck.net/rumble/RatingsDetails?game=roborumble&name=ags.polished.PolishedRuby%201 this page], and look at the 4 lowest scores there and see how different they are from any others. As you can see, [[User:Axe\|Axe]] really loves anti-mirror ;P --[[User:Rednaxela\|Rednaxela]] 12:39, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
		+
		+	I think Duelist series by David Alves all have a truly guarantees future location. If you detect mirror, I think changing to his technique is rather good. He just pick a randomly position (and perpendicular) and set a random number to the timer. Each tick he decrease the timer. When it reach zero it just picks new location. Sound easy, right? I think go-to surfer guarantees it too, just not as accurate as Duelist. I think technique, IIRCm is call DavePantedAntiMirrorTargeting. » <span style="font-size:0.9em;color:darkgreen;">[[User:Nat\|Nat]] \| [[User_talk:Nat\|Talk]]</span> » 12:56, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:39, 17 June 2009
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	I don't really know anything about this, but one way to tell might be to look at your and the other robot's X and Y / heading changes, and if they are very similar it may be a mirrorbot.--[[User:CrazyBassoonist\|CrazyBassoonist]] 12:36, 17 June 2009 (UTC)		I don't really know anything about this, but one way to tell might be to look at your and the other robot's X and Y / heading changes, and if they are very similar it may be a mirrorbot.--[[User:CrazyBassoonist\|CrazyBassoonist]] 12:36, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
		+
		+	Well there is a segment: "Your own planned movement", of course most bots don't plan their movement in a way that truly guarantees future location. Really, so-called "Anti-Mirror Targeting" (here's the [http://old.robowiki.net/cgi-bin/robowiki?AntiMirrorSystem old wiki page]) isn't just targeting, it's a coordinated targeting/movement system. To see how effective it is, take a look at [http://darkcanuck.net/rumble/RatingsDetails?game=roborumble&name=ags.polished.PolishedRuby%201 this page], and look at the 4 lowest scores there and see how different they are from any others. As you can see, [[User:Axe\|Axe]] really loves anti-mirror ;P --[[User:Rednaxela\|Rednaxela]] 12:39, 17 June 2009 (UTC)