Archived talk:Twin Duel 20090807

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Twin Duel - Participants - Results - Strategy Guide - Tourney Runner - Origin Discussion - Archived Talk 20090807
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Please sound off if you think you'll enter this Thursday, and in which division (AdvancedRobot or ExtendsRobot). It's not a commitment, I'd just like to get a feel for things. I plan to enter one team for sure, and possibly a second just for kicks, although I'm 99% sure one of my teams will be far superior to the other. Good luck dudes! -- Voidious

  • I'll try to have an AdvancedRobot team ready for Thursday, but I can't guarantee anything for sure. --wcsv
    • Well, I didn't have a decent team ready for the first week. Considering that I've never written a melee or team bot (or a bot under 2000 bytes for that matter), i'm not surprised. After writing duelists for so long, it's tough to get used to the idea that there's more than one other bot out there.--wcsv
  • I'll have at least an AdvancedRobot team ready for Thursday. Hopefully a Robot team as well. --David Alves
  • I have holidays! Two teams should be possible :) --Krabb
  • My holidays are over :( I will try to have a team ready by Thursday, but cannot promise anything. --Loki
  • I spent the night in a hotel, so I have a 'cheap' Twin ready (GruwelTwin). A really new Twin will come next week. -- GrubbmGait
  • I'm in. Meet TwintelligenceOne and Two, weighing in at 1993 bytes (which could be compressed a lot if I tried...). How do you want me to send them, Voidious? For now, I'll try to put them on the Repository. -- Greywhind
    • Just e-mail me the .jar, e-mail is on the ContactInfo page. I can and will just get 'em off the repository, if it's up, but it isn't always. -- Voidious

This is gonna be fun! As bot-master, I promise not to look at or test against anybody's team until the actual competition has taken place each week =) With the aid of the RoboRumble code, I think I'll have the battle automator stuff done tonight. -- Voidious

Alright, much thanks to Albert and his excellent RoboRumble code, I'm now able to simulate team battles for this competition. I also perused Mue's runbattles.zip code, but Albert's turned out to be more useful, and I also knew it was team-aware. Just a little work left in organizing the code and we'll be ready to rock with this. -- Voidious

  • Sweet, got that round robin automator totally done and ready to rock for Thursday. I'll just run the bracket tourney by hand, although I could and probably will automate that part, too, in the future. I'll share the code here sometime soon. -- Voidious

Just a note beforehand that I would like to make the finals a best of 3, unless somebody raises serious objections to that. So far I've got GrubbmGait's entry, and I know that mine will be ready. I'll run everything when I get home from work tomorrow, and hopefully have final results posted tomorrow evening. Good luck everyone. -- Voidious

Just realized a potential problem with the ExtendsRobot division... TeamRobot extends AdvancedRobot, so the only way to have isTeammate() etc is to do it yourself by parsing getName(). =P --David Alves

  • Ha, good point ;) Just removed it from the rule set at the top. Was gonna try and make one, too, but I guess I can just spend that time on my AdvancedRobot team now. =) -- Voidious

Is it ok to use java 1.5? Or are we saying that bots need to be 1.4 compatible? --David Alves

I'm running Java 1.5, so it's fine with me if you use it. -- Voidious

I've got one ready. And its going to kick the pants off y'all. Or something. Actually, it probably sucks. We'll see. -- Krillr

I don't get my team redy this week... it's more than just minimising slarti :) --Krabb

I failed to reach the deadline too :( I guess, because i understood the meaning of GMT! But what the @$#% is the meaning of UTS?

Quote Wikipedia: "Coordinated Universal Time (UTC) is a high-precision atomic time standard which replaced Greenwich Mean Time on 1 January, 1972 as the basis for legal civil time all over the Earth. UTC has uniform seconds defined by International Atomic Time (TAI), with leap seconds announced at irregular intervals to compensate for the earth's slowing rotation, and other discrepancies. The leap seconds allow UTC to closely track Universal Time (UT), which is a time standard based on the earth's angular rotation, rather than a uniform passage of seconds.

Time zones around the world are expressed as positive or negative offsets from UTC. In this role, UTC is also referred to as Zulu time (Z)."

The problem with this definition is that it does not define 0 UTC...

While GMT ("Greenwich Mean Time") at least represented a geographical location that most people know ... end of growling... --Loki

Positive side of this new competition is that i discovered a huge bug in my team of Valkiries which prevented the exchange of information. I hope to use this info and finally implement a bugfree version of my new movement. --Loki

Well Voidious emailed me and said he's on his way home, so you still have a half hour or so. My (last minute) entry is at YinYang. Good luck guys! --David Alves

My real twin will be in next week, for now I just entered a team-aware Gruwel. (Shame on me, but at least there is some competition) -- GrubbmGait

Starting the round robin now ... I hope to have everything up tonight. Maybe I'll post some interim info, well see =) Good luck all! -- Voidious

I got the losses down to a 2-1 ratio vs GruwelTwins last night, and cut almost 400 bytes by converting to a VisitCountStats gun this morning. There is hope for next week, at least =) -- Voidious

I've finished an interesting team that beats all current entrants but KomariousTeam. However, I'll be on vacation for the next two weeks, so I won't be able to update it (or maybe even check on its score). Lets hope for good results when I get back... -- Kev

Wow, all but KomariousTeam is an interesting statistic. I guess I won't pull it =). Also, I am going to assume I should just re-enter a team if it isn't updated for the following week - somebody let me know if I should do otherwise. -- Voidious

Just a reminder, deadline is the same as last week, and I'll be running the competition when I get home from work tomorrow. Good luck everyone! -- Voidious

No new entry for me yet. The 2v1 strategy seems ok, but the 2v2, 1v1 and especially the 1v2 strategies are not want I want. Lets see if GruwelTwins can keep the nr 1 position for one more week. -- GrubbmGait

I wouldn't focus much on 1v2 strategy, but that's just my 2 cents. Unless you find that HolyGrail implementation of TwinDuel WaveSurfing that I've been looking for =) -- Voidious

  • Hmm, ya know, disregard that comment. There's plenty of times that the 1v2 strategy can work out. But I do think it's the least important strategy to focus on... -- Voidious
  • I know, but the overall feeling is not good yet. It is difficult to test strategies as I beat the first-week-participants easily and GruwelTwins does not care about what strategy it is fighting against. -- GrubbmGait
  • Well, I promise you'll have something better to test against after this week... =) -- Voidious

Deadline for bots is Thursday at 5 pm EDT / 9 pm UTC / 2 pm PDT. You can just e-mail them to me (check ContactInfo). Good luck everyone! -- Voidious

I don't have a new entry ready for this week. =( --David Alves

Tourney's running, but I'm eating dinner, so I won't update wiki page for a little while. Thanks everyone for the entrants. Probably only 2 rounds of round robin this week, too, but we'll see. -- Voidious

Just a friendly reminder that the deadline is at 21:00 UTC today for this week's tourney. I'm not sure I'll have an update to my team, sadly, but we'll see if I can make some progress against GeminiTeam in the couple of hours I have left =) I'm planning to start things right at the deadline today, so please get me your updated entries before then! As before, I will assume a previous entry should stay in unless you let me know I should remove it. -- Voidious

  • Hmm, only two new/updated bots this week? And one is mine. I'll give it at least an extra 15 minutes here... -- Voidious
  • Well, I'm heading out to dinner, so I'll get the round robin started. Good luck all! -- Voidious

I added a rule, "no reading from or writing to files". Is that OK with everyone? GrubbmGait proposed this during our initial discussion, and nobody had a problem with it. It might be OK to change it to "no writing to files, and no pre-loaded data that is enemy specific". So you could still store patterns or whatever in there to cut code size, if you want. Thoughts? -- Voidious

Just an hour until the deadline for this week. Once again, I have not made much progress - I've been a little distracted by Phoenix climbing the rankings behind Dookious =) - but I am looking forward to returning my focus to the TwinDuel format soon. Good luck to everyone! -- Voidious

Alright, only new entries this week are from me and Loki - and mine are probably a decrease in performance. =) Good luck everyone! -- Voidious

No new or updated submissions yet for this week (8/31). I do hope to try some new stuff with my team in the next week or two, but I don't have anything new for this week, either. I'll change my entry from 0.90 to 0.89 of LuminariousDuo and still run it for this week, in any case. Next week, I would like to move the tournament to Wednesday or just cancel it altogether, since I have a family wedding and related activities later in the week. I'll only cancel it if there are still no new entries by then. Good luck all, though I'm pretty sure GeminiTeam will still take it home if nothing new comes in in the next 20 minutes =) -- Voidious

  • sorry, i am not ready in time. I will have a new entry next week. --Loki

There were no new entries last week, and I was very busy with Real Life, so I didn't run a TwinDuel tourney. I am planning to for this week, though, despite the only new entrant being a small update to LuminariousDuo from myself. I hope you guys are still interested in doing this... I, too, am quite guilty of not working much on my team. Maybe I'll drop it to bi-weekly if interest doesn't pick up. -- Voidious

What about dropping the code limit? ;) --Krabb

Well, that would raise the level of competition to the point that it would be unexciting, for me. Shadow and Aleph would instantly dominate, probably to the point that they wouldn't be dethroned for months, if ever. Even now, adapting a good melee MiniBot is a pretty quick route to a competitive team... Which is not such a bad thing, as I think it's quite possible to overcome their head start with some teamwork and the extra 500 bytes. That's my feeling on it, anyway... sorry man. :-\ -- Voidious

I agree with Voidious that dropping the codesize limit would give a HUGE advantage to established mega team bots like Shadow; however I also must admit that the codesize limitation is really killing my interest in working on my team at the moment. There must be some sort of solution, what about factoring codesize into the scoring so that bots larger than 2000 bytes are handicapped proportionally to their codesize? --wcsv

The idea seemed interesting, but I wasn't going to design an entirely new bot to meet the code size restriction. Fortunately, there is already an "Extends TeamRobot" competition for megabots, and you can run it whenever you like. I've stripped out all of the team code from Ugluk since creating my three teams (one was discarded). It made additions and refactoring of the code more burdensome. Perhaps some day I'll make another team. -- Martin

I like wcsv's idea. How about the winner of a given round is determined by (score / (codesize + 500)), with no upper or lower limits on codesize? The reason for adding 500 is so that Walls isn't an instant champion. =P

Just to give a rough idea of how that formula plays out, here are some matches that would be ties. 

SomeNanobot (249 bytes) that scores 1000 (37.5%)
    would tie with 
SomeMicrobot (749 bytes)  that scores 1668 (62.5%)

SomeMicrobot (749 bytes) that scores 1000 (38.5%)
    would tie with 
SomeMinibot (1499 bytes) that scores 1600 (61.5%)

SomeMinibot (1499 bytes) that scores 1000 (15.8%)
    would tie with 
Shadow 3.66d (31696 bytes) if Shadow scored 16106 (94.2%)


SomeMinibot (1499 bytes) that scores 1000 (14.3%)
    would tie with 
Aleph 0.34 (11498 bytes) if Aleph scored 6002 (85.7%)

The number 500 would favor things around minibot size I think. That constant could be adjusted up or down if we wanted to favor larger or smaller bots. But essentially, there's no way for any large megabot (eg Shadow, Aleph) to win it.

--David Alves

So we'd just ditch the Survivalist aspect altogether? I must say, I do prefer the rules like they are. But I'm interested to hear what the other competitors (and would-be competitors) have to say about it. The truly fun part of all this is in trying a new style of competition and competing with you guys, so I'm certainly flexible =) However, it seems to me that the people that dislike making code size restricted bots would dislike this just as much. Is that not true? -- Voidious

I also think the tournament is good the way it is. Basing score on code size looks like it might help smaller code size bots even more. I'm pretty sure two DoctorBob's would win fairly easily if the scoring is kept (score / (codesize + 500)). With a higher constant, it might work though. GeminiTeam, which doesn't use MinimumRiskMovement, proved that adapting melee bots might not be the best way to go anyway. -- Kev


Well, use (survival firsts) / (codesize + X) if you want to keep the survival element. As for DoctorBob winning, here's the results of GeminiTeam vs. DoctorBob in a 75 round match:

Team Score Codesize Score / (codesize + 500) Survival 1sts Survival 1sts / (codesize + 500)
kc.twins.GeminiTeam 40389 1833 17.312 70 30.004 (x1000)
radnor.DoctorBobDuo 16277 238 22.055 5 6.7751 (x1000)

So maybe the constant should be higher if we use Score / (Codesize + X). I think 500 is fine if we do survival firsts though. --David Alves

Not sure how I feel about mixing Survivalist scoring with the code size penalty ... A lot of lopsided battles happen in the TwinDuel in terms of rounds won, so I think the Survivalist scoring would favor larger code sizes a bit more than raw scoring. -- Voidious

Well I tried Shadow vs Gemini, and Shadow won with something like 45-30, which wasn't anywhere near enough to overcome its codesize penalty. For what that's worth. =) --David Alves

Getting ready to start this week's tourney, but going to give David a few more minutes to send his team, since he was taunting me with some impressive results earlier today... =) Good luck everyone! -- Voidious

Congrats David on this excellent result! That is the charm of such a tournament: You don't have to be the absolute best, as long as you beat the bots you are fighting. I already found out that being agressive is much more important than in Melee or even OneOnOne, but can't find the time to bugfix my new version of GrauwuarG. -- GrubbmGait

Question: are the best TwinDuel bots better melee bots, or are they more of modified 1v1 bots? How would they do in the rumble -- Alcatraz

We really don't know enough to say for sure. So far aggressive 1-v-1 bots seem to do the best, but Luminarious is a melee-style bot and the latest version is quite strong. --David Alves

There are also some interesting trade-offs. For instance, the first GeminiTeam, with an agressive 1v1 type style, trounced pretty much the whole field; but KomariousTeam, an adapted 1v1 bot team, made easy work of it, while many others had an easy time with KomariousTeam. I found it funny that GrubbmGait, with some solid background in melee, commented that the style is more like 1v1, while I, having spent 90% of my time in 1v1, find it to be more like melee ;) -- Voidious

Alright, I'm gonna get things underway for this week's tourney ... Good luck, everyone. -- Voidious

Holy cow, I am really out of it tonight. I completely forgot about the TwinDuel until just now. There are no new entries, anyway, but I'll go ahead and re-run last week for the heck of it. =) Good luck, all! -- Voidious

A bit late reaction because I missed your post above. The main reason I took Gruwel to make my first twin and not Griezel, was that I expected it to perform better. Most of the better meleebots have their movement tuned to not getting targeted. In the TwinDuel you have only one enemy, so you will always be targeted. As running away is not really possible, being agressive hopefully throws off your enemy's movement. Next to that the gun is much more important than in melee. The TwinDuel can still be played as OneOnOne, as long as you have a teaspoon full of team-awareness and a meleeradar. @Voidious: isn't it time to retire Codious and enter a tuned Luminarious? As for GrauwuarG, I can't get it to do what I want, so I spent the little time I have on chasing Tigger -- GrubbmGait

Yeah, you have a whole lot of good points there. It's certainly a unique thing between 1v1 and melee. Probably the main reason it feels more "like melee" to me is because, for me, the key difference between 1v1 and melee is that you have perfect data available to you in 1v1, so you can act on basically pure statistics at all times. To not have perfect stats makes a huge difference in how you design a tank - instead of designing the best algorithm to deal with all your data, you have to come up with systems that deal well with a variety of situations without knowing everything about it first. And you're right, I should retire Codious and make a melee-aware Luminarious, or maybe revamp Codious with Luminarious as a base... -- Voidious

Sorry for no TwinDuel this week, but I was a bit busy with various things and there were no new entries. If there's interest, I'll run a replacement tourney today or tomorrow. (And it could just be me that's interested. =)) -- Voidious

I don't plan on skipping the TwinDuel again this week, but if I don't have power by the time I get home from classes today (on campus now), I won't be running it until this weekend... -- Voidious

Just a note that I'll be running this week's TwinDuel shortly, once LuminariousDuo has been tweaked to beat everyone =) I kid, but I do have a nice update to it for this week. Good luck all! -- Voidious

Are there any other formats that some of you would be interested in using for a weekly or bi-weekly tournament? It's a relatively small amount of work for me to write the code to automate the whole thing, and I am generally willing to commit the CPU time needed for it. We could make it and the TwinDuel bi-weekly on alternating weeks if it were a strain on my time to run them both.

Is anyone interested? And what might be some fun and (at least somewhat) unique formats we could try? Or is everybody busy with the current RoboRumble@Home divisions and not interested in this kind of thing?

-- Voidious

  • I would surely enter a MegaTwinDuel competition!
  • A Mixed2on2 where bots from different Authors are playing together would be fun too! But no code restrictions please :) --Krabb

I would gladly run a MegaBot TwinDuel tourney, though I'd like to keep the current division around as is, too. If the teams ended up really slow, as MegaBots tend to sometimes, maybe we could decrease the # of rounds. We could also consider throwing the "mini" twins in the mega competition, or maybe only if the author expressed an interest in doing so.

  • If we start a Mixed2on2 competition i would drop the MegaBot TwinDuel tourney, the first one sounds more interesting. --Krabb

The mixed 2 on 2 seems like a neat idea, too. Are you thinking like an author would write a single bot, and it would be randomly paired up with another bot in each match? That seems like a really interesting idea... Maybe we could develop a "base class" that does some information sharing that everyone would extend from? Then everyone would have access to at least some common team information, like where the teammate is, maybe who they're targeting, sharing scans, etc.

-- Voidious

Nice description :) I think we should keep the base class really elementary, the bot should react on the enemy's behavior and this should not be that easy! --Krabb

No updates from anyone, again, but I'll get this running in a few minutes. Had to take the MacBook in for repairs on the Random Shutdown issue - how's that for irony? =) Trusty Linux box is a bit slower, but should be no problem to run the TwinDuel from it this week. Good luck all! -- Voidious

I'm starting work on my TwinDuel robot, it will be called Inevitable, and will just be two of the same robot, I have some cool stuff planned. -- Chase-san

Okay, I'm in, I listed my bot as a wiki bot as its based off RaikoMicro (abiet a greatly modified one), my goal was to try to make two bots that worked together as best they could to bring down a single enemy then pick off the other. I'll add my team (if applicable) to the list. The team is at http://jad.tfsnewworld.com/bots/wiki.twin.InevitableTeam_0.1.jar -- Chase-san

I might be able to get some people at my school interested for next week. I'm giving a talk on Wednesday that will hopefully get some of them hooked. =) I'll do it in any case. --David Alves

@David: If it would help, we could have a "beginner's division" for the TwinDuel, or you could take my tourney running utility and run some yourself just for them.

Looks like Kev and I have both updated our teams to be title contenders this week. Out of fairness, I'm not testing against his new GeminiTeam before the tourney, so I'm excited to see which of us will come out on top, or if KomariousTeam will get lucky and make it 4 in a row =) Nice to see a new team this week, too, from Chase-san. Round robin will be starting at 5 pm Eastern, good luck dudes!

-- Voidious

An interesting observation: a team of 2x Shiz, weighing 749 bytes, beats the current LuminariousDuo. That and 2x GlowingHawks were the original makeshift teams I tested against, but I haven't been lately. Lumi used to beat them both ... it's interesting that by far the best version yet of Luminarious in the TwinDuel now loses to Shiz. -- Voidious

No new entries this week, but I'll get the round robin going... Good luck everyone! -- Voidious

I am going out of town this week (Wednesday), so I'm not going to run a tourney this week. If somebody wants to run it, they are free to, just let me know and I'll forward any new entries to you. (You'd also want to grab the TwinDuel Utility to automate the round robin.) Otherwise, with Thanksgiving next week, I'll just plan to run the next one on Tuesday, 11/13, and then resume the Thursday schedule the following week. -- Voidious

I am running the TwinDuel for this week right now. Sorry I forgot about that one last Tuesday, but no new entries anyway... Good luck all! -- Voidious

I decided to awaken things and add a pair of Shizes to the mix. The real fun now is that they create a cycle in the who-beats-who graph :-) -- Kawigi

Awesome! =) I guess it's time to get back to work on LuminariousDuo 1.01... maybe for next week, too many finals to worry about right now. I'll get the round robin running around 5:00 pm EST. Good luck, all! -- Voidious

Welcome back Kawigi! I am glad you got interested in Robocode again. It's amazing what an (non-tweaked?) melee-expert twin can achieve against those one-on-one rip-offs. -- GrubbmGait

I think Shiz's movement is a little bit weighted against head-on targeting, which is why it performs so well here. That and the very simple knowledge of the difference between avoiding the enemy and avoiding the teammate makes it coherent enough for almost any team setting (and it would probably do well in TwinMelee, if such a competition existed). Perhaps with Coriantumr's gun, it would perform more consistently against other near-top teams. I'm not really sure that I'm "back" into Robocode, I have way too many hobbies currently as it is ;-) Just checking in on what you all are doing. The problem is that while I enjoy these little experimental leagues (and I'm not as attracted to the barrier of reentry I perceive in 1-on-1), I think I make them less fun for others (has anyone beaten Girl yet?). -- Kawigi

I don't think anyone's tried to write a serious ExtendsRobot bot since Girl. Welcome back! --David Alves

I wouldn't worry about making the TwinDuel less fun by whooping us =) For one, it's not overloaded with activity as it is... also, I, for one, would welcome the challenge! If anything, I think it would encourage more activity if you came along and rocked everyone in this competition. -- Voidious

Got things started for this week (12/14), but I'm also working on a project for school that's due at midnight, so the results might not be up until a bit later than normal. Good luck everyone! -- Voidious

I'll try to resume the regular schedule tomorrow - sorry about the 2 weeks with no tourney! (As if anyone noticed... :P) -- Voidious

Got the round robin going about 20 minutes ago. I'll have some result up in an hour or two. Good luck all! -- Voidious

Getting the round robin started for today (1/10), sorry for the late start... -- Voidious

Any TwinDuel today? I like winning :-) -- Kawigi

Yes, starting the Round Robin right now. Sorry I never got one going for last week, I kept putting it off and then never got around to it. Good luck all! -- Voidious

I just ran a battle vs a ShadowTeam (two shadows), and MarioBros. MarioBros bearly wins, but the Shadows gets the most Survival 1sts.

Rank Robot Name Total Score Survival Last Survivor Bonus Bullet Dmg Bonus Ram Dmg*2 Bonus Survival 1sts Survival 2nds
1st Team: kawigi.twin.MarioBros 22471 9100 1180 10763 1428 0 0 34 41
2nd Team: abc.ShadowTeam 21246 5900 920 12642 1784 0 0 41 34

I probably have the better TwinDuel movement by a bit, but he has the better duel movement/gun :-) -- Kawigi

For what it's worth, ShadowDUo absolutely crushes LuminariousDuo, usually like 71 - 4. Very impressive results for MarioBros (I got 46 - 29 when I ran it). -- Voidious

I am working on a new team and I have all the base logic done with only 1616 bytes to play with. Thier called Shade and Umbra. Be called the DarkTwins. I was gonna call them team ShadowSpawn, but thats probably too much of a name to live up to (and personally I think its rights belong to Abc). I will probably enter Shade (in modified form) into melee if I get around to it. --Chase-san

I considered entering Mario in 1-on-1 and melee as well, although I'd prefer if it was a MiniBot (which it isn't right now). -- Kawigi

By the way, differences in performance against Shadow may have to do with whatever your CPU constant was set to. MarioBros is a lot faster than Shadow :-) -- Kawigi

Meh, EclipseTwins; Penumbra and Umbra currently loses to TwinintelligenceTeam. 25 to 50, but then again its using FunkyChickens movement. They use a collective patternMatcher, each bot watches one of the enemies (unlike envitables which watch the same one), and then teams on one of them using data gained from the other(meaning no gaps in scan data!). Once I get some real movement into it, I expect them to alteast outrank my old InevitableTeam.

Getting the round robin going right now for today (2/1). No new entries, so MarioBros should demolish us all again, but I still intend to update LuminariousDuo eventually, I swear. :) -- Voidious

See, when I enter these smaller tournament-style things, I suck the updates out of everyone (j/k). -- Kawigi

I have but one thing to say to that: morbo_destroy.mp3 ... (I'm only a recent OS X convert, so forgive my lack of command of the audio apps. :P Edit: Good opportunity to find some good free apps - now it's an MP3.) -- Voidious

Getting the round robin going for today (2/8) here. I did work on LuminariousDuo some early in the week and made some progress against MarioBros, but not enough to pose any real threat. Still, was good to work on it some and I am entering 1.01 this week. Best of luck, all! -- Voidious

Good to hear, awaiting the results :-) -- Kawigi

Man, I really gotta just write the bracket tourney into my TwinDuel util. Maybe for next week... ;) -- Voidious

No new entries this week. I'll be getting the round robin going shortly. -- Voidious

Just a heads up that I am going to have to delay the TwinDuel until Friday of this week due to some other engagements... -- Voidious

Oh come on, what else could you possibly have going on that would be so important? ;) -- Simonton

*cough* -- Kawigi

Getting the round robin started now. :) (Just got back from dinner.) One update this week from GrubbmGait. -- Voidious

Sorry for the delay (if anyone's paying attention) - gonna post round robin results and run bracket tourney momentarily. -- Voidious

Sweet, I've just finished getting the whole bracket tourney completely automated (the round robin already was). About half the coding time was spent doing the basic bracket tourney based on the round robin results; the other half was spent doing a non-ugly implementation of the "last round is best of 3" =) Anyway, it's done. The only thing not handled is if the best of 3 in the finals results in an overall tie, but I figure I don't mind running that manually if it ever actually happens. =)

What actual impact does this have on anything? Perhaps not much just yet, but: I'm less likely to delay / be late running the TwinDuel each week; I could easily run a much larger tourney over night if we had significantly more teams or added more rounds to the round robin; I save about 45 minutes each week of manually running battles =); and maybe somebody else will find the source useful for their own tourneys. I'll post the source soon.

-- Voidious

Good to hear! Now the next step is getting the results to be uploaded automatically :-) (that was one of the charms of the RobocodeLittleLeague) -- Kawigi

I'll get the tourney started in about 15-20 minutes as I'm leaving for dinner. New entries from GrubbmGait and myself. I'll still post the round robin results when they're available, even though it's all one automated tourney running now. =) -- Voidious

Sorry for being so late on this today, I'll run the tourney now. I probably won't be up late enough for it to finish, so I'll post the results in the morning. No new entries this week. Good luck all. -- Voidious

Getting the tourney started momentarily. Only update this week is from me, but I still haven't caught up with MarioBros =) Good luck all! -- Voidious

A little late, as usual, but I've got this week's TwinDuel going now... -- Voidious

See previous comment =) Starting it up now, results tonight or tomorrow... -- Voidious

A day late, but I'm running this week's TwinDuel now. Good luck all! -- Voidious

I am working on a bot that might make its way here, its on a anti-gravity base (the old style). --Chase-san

Sorry, I know I'm a terrible Tourney Master these days. I actually ran last week's tourney last week but never posted the results. I'll run this week's and post them both sometime this weekend, I promise. =) I'll try and get back on the regular schedule, too... -- Voidious

Ok, I'm really truly running this week's tourney now, and will post results tonight or tomorrow. I'll also make a rare "triple whammy" update and post the tourney results for the last 2 weeks =) Sorry for the lack of discipline, guys, I hope you all can forgive me. New entry from GrubbmGait is the only one for this week. Best of luck, all! -- Voidious

Running the TwinDuel overnight, will post the results tomorrow. Got an update from me this week, but still not enough to dethrone MarioBros. Good luck all! -- Voidious

So the TwinDuel has taken an extended hiatus, as maybe somebody noticed. Is anybody interested in me starting it up again? What about a non-Codesize restricted version? There was a lot of slow time throughout the TwinDuel, but other times it was a whole lot of fun (for me, anyway), especially in the beginning. I think this style of competition has a lot to offer over the grueling world of tweaking that is the RoboRumble sometimes. And/or what about a weekly or bi-weekly tourney with a new format for each event? -- Voidious

  • TwinDuel has always been in the back of my mind, but lower on the list than climbing the other ranks. So, while I hope to participate in such an event at some point, it is in the future. -- Simonton
  • A non-Codesize restricted version would be nice! This would be the perfect possibility to make Garm team capable! --Krabb
  • Still have a GF-gun and a tweaked movement ready for GrauwuarG somewhere underneath a pile of dust. If I can find it, find the time and also some 30 bytes, it's ready to shake up those rusty top 5 Twins! -- GrubbmGait
  • What about reviving the HatTourney? --Krabb

Ok, I'll start running this again this week. I'd like to just run it while I'm at work on Thursdays, so I'll make the deadline Wednesday nights at midnight (Eastern time). If there's interest (read: an entrant over 2000 bytes :-P) I'll start a MegaBot version, too, perhaps in alternating weeks. Should I include all the < 2000 entrants in the MegaBot class, as well? ...at least at first?

Also, I just re-read that HatTourney page and that sounds like it could be really interesting. The main barriers are developing some common API and writing automation code for creating teams on the fly. I think it'd be really fun, though, and you'd get a lot of cool matchups. The API could be very simple and still be useful.

-- Voidious

We had a discussion about message formats. I'd be interested in participating in a Megabot Hat Tourney. Right now I'm swamped with other Java coding trying to revive a project that I worked on for three years when I was just learning Java. I am pretty embarassed by the coding style, though the thing was very complex and worked well. I am trying to remove the database calls from the JSP pages, for example. But I digress.
I would have incorporated this more into Ugluk but I hit a snag with serializing messages for transmission and I think I just gave up after a while. If we could collaborate on a standard message format, perhaps with some additional "commands" to show intent (e.g. "shoot this target" and "radar sweep this target" to allow both opponents to be scanned while focusing fire on one), that would make the rest smooth sailing. - Martin

  • Actually it looks like most if not all of the work has been done for the common message transmission, though I didn't really look closely at the code. -- Martin

Just a reminder that I'll be running a weekly TwinDuel again as of tomorrow. My money is still on MarioBros =), but maybe I'll take a break from the DC world to try and bang out some changes to LuminariousDuo. Also, I should clean up this page a bit. -- Voidious

  • You could give them DC guns ... -- Simonton

If I recall correctly, Luminarious had DC guns initially, but Voidious switched to GF because DC took up too many bytes. --David Alves

Yep, they sure did. VisitCountStats was a lot smaller and the same (or better) performance, if I remember correctly. -- Voidious

Just a note that the TwinDuel is gonna be a bit delayed today. My MacBook has a messed up fan that sounds like a jet engine (and is going in for repair soon), so I didn't want to leave it running on there while I'm away from home. I'll run it (probably on another machine) when I get home today. -- Voidious

I had lots of JVM issues with getting Robocode running last night on my temp machine, but I managed to figure it out today. I'll get the TwinDuel running shortly. The only new entry this week is from me. Good luck all! -- Voidious

You can remove the bot I entered if you like, it is been soundly trounced. I might start looking into melee soon, as One on One just doesn't seem to be doing it for me. --Chase-san

I'll be getting the TwinDuel going shortly. New entries from me and GrubbmGait this week. Good luck, all! @Chase: I'd just as soon leave it in unless you want it out, it's nice to have some variety. -- Voidious

Mmkay, but as soon as I get my melee pathfinder done (its like anti-grav and min risk, but it maps out its path based on a weighted node map (yes neural in nature)), I might if it can be shurnk enough, enter it (assuming it does okay in melee). --Chase-san

Sorry, but I encountered a but in my TwinDuel tourney automator during the last run, so I need to fix it and rerun it. I think it must be a pretty obscure one, because I've never seen it before and it would be pretty obvious if it were happening regularly. Hopefully I'll have it fixed today or tomorrow. -- Voidious

So I fixed a bug in the TwinDuel bracket tourney. The net effect of the bug is it assumed the first bot listed (usually the higher seeded one) would get the higher score - as in score score, not survival - and show up first in the results table. Obviously a really bad assumption (and not one I actually made). At least it's nice to note that I started automating the bracket tourney sometime after MarioBros came along, so I don't think I've affected the tourney winner with this too often (if ever). Anyway, it's fixed now! -- Voidious

TwinDuel for today (Nov. 8 2007) starting now, results posted in a bit... -- Voidious

I missed last week because of the holiday, but I have no excuse for this week - I'll get the TwinDuel running soon and post the results later tonight or tomorrow. Good luck dudes! -- Voidious

I need to make a new one of these, I have been putting some time into the movement lab, and some into the radar and team management area's. I think to test it all out I could dump it into a twin-duel bot (if it all fits). --Chase-san

Still no new entries - starting this week's TwinDuel now. Good luck dudes! -- Voidious

  • NightAndDay will be ready for next week. All that's left to do is tune the minimum risk movement a bit and have some way to stop it from getting stuck at local minimums so easily, probably just weighting the one attribute higher. I've still got 500 bytes free, so I might even be able to change it to DynamicClustering. It's REALLY slow, though. Aiming only if(getGunHeat()/0.1 <= MEA/(Math.PI/9 - Math.PI/18)) should fix that. -- Skilgannon
  • Wouldn't pi / 9 - pi / 18 just be pi / 18? Anyway, definitely looking forward to seeing NightAndDay in action. =) --David Alves
  • Yeah, it would, but it gets compiled to that anyways, and I think PI/9 - PI/18 makes it more readable (ie. max gun turn - max movement turn, which is minimum possible gun turn per tick). -- Skilgannon
    • Just use a comment, as far as codesize is concerned thier free. --Chase-san

Firing up the TwinDuel for this week. There is a new entrant from Skilgannon, NightAndDay - cool! Best of luck to all! -- Voidious

Sorry, got a bit sidetracked after work - TwinDuel for 1/3/08 starting now. Good luck all! -- Voidious

A day late, but I've got the TwinDuel for this week running at home. I'll post the results when I get home in a few hours (around 6:30 EST/GMT-5). Good luck, all! PS - I hope that Chase and Skilgannon's entries work ok with RoboRumble 1.1.3, because I didn't test them... doh. -- Voidious

Wow, some tourney runner I am, I completely forgot to run it this week. Did anyone notice? =) Anyway, I'll run it after work today. No reason to deny Kev his new win streak... -- Voidious

Hmm, one question I just thought of for this. Is it allowed that one robot be a droid? I don't see anything against it in the above rules but wonder if this might be 'against the spirit' or not ;) -- Rednaxela

Well, the rules don't mention it specifically, but I say go for it. =) There was some talk of droids in the original discussion where we started up the TwinDuel, but it sounded like everyone was fine with them being allowed. -- Voidious

Okay, done! :) It will be interesting to see how LunarTwins fares considering it's guns just consist of one using CircularTargeting and the other using HeadOnTargeting... Anyways, could you add my entry of LunarTwins (The download url is on it's page) for next week's run? :) -- Rednaxela

Just in case you don't see it in the LunarTwins page, I just made a new release, WaveSuffering with RougeDC got on my nerves, so I took a break to improve the refreshingly non-adaptive LunarTwins ;) -- Rednaxela

I feel like Robocoding TwinDuel teams finally :) --Starrynte

I've got this week's TwinDuel running right now, so I'll post results this evening when I get home. Also, is this thing on? Haven't seen any updates in a couple days - I hope the wiki ain't broken! Guess I'm about to find out. =) -- Voidious

Yep, still working.... I've been so busy I haven't had time to do any work on bots. I'm still checking in regularly though. -- Skilgannon

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