Archived talk:RoboRumble

Hey, I have one question. Is it the rules of TeamRumble set amount of bots in team to 5? I think some teams in teamrumble have only 4 bots. If there are no limit on bots number, how about some team with maximum robots that robocode can process (10 bots)? » Nat | Talk » 09:20, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

So far as I understand, it's considered a rule that you're allowed 5 or less team members in TeamRumble. I'm not sure it's formally stated anywhere but that is the general understanding I believe. Expect people to remove it if you add a team with 10 bots ;) --Rednaxela 17:30, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

I not sure there are people removing now =( I saw that GrubbmGait sometimes contribute team rumble (arround 6 battle per month) and I sometimes contribute team rumble, too. (I almost run 3 rumbles at same time! so the rsult may corrupt since I run 3 battle, create robot using eclipse, surf the internet on firefox with about 50 tabs, do my work on Word and Excel 2007, edit image for work in Photoshop CS3. All of that run togeather on my 2-years-old notebook with 1GB of ram! (although it dual-core, my computer also run 3 apache, 2 mysql, 1 tomcat, 3 mail server, IIS and other @Home operation (SETI@HOME etc.) in background which result in over thousand of threads to process in one cpu cycle!)) My computer sometime crash and I close teamrumble and meleerumble so the result will be given only to roborumble. I've enter MiniAtomicOperation for about 3 months and got only 17 battles! I don't think there are actually one who test every bot in teamrumble! (In fact, I don't think there're someone who download team rumble for testbed! Robocode 1.6.2 has seriously bug on team, I can't run any team create from my 1.6.2, also some jar like PairOfShiz ain't batleable, too.) » Nat | Talk » 09:11, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Note that MiniAtomicOperation is not listed in the TeamParticipants page on the old wiki, so it is understandable that it does not get much battles. on the 'old' CurrentRankings page it is stated that Teambattles are on a 1200 by 1200 field over 10 rounds with 2 teams with 5 bots each. Some teams really expect 5 opponents, I ran into that when testing my first TwinDuel twin against some teams from the TeamRumble, so I would expect some strange results when fighting with a team with less or more than 5 bots. --GrubbmGait 00:25, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Really? I have not check that page yet but I know that last old-wiki downtime cause loosing many change include my robot! I have to add them, then. But I not expect much with this team! You see on my page, It just a mix of those robots! » Nat | Talk » 05:00, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

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Hi! I don't know where to ask, so I write here. I'd be glad to see the Hungarian flag next to my name in RoboRumble. How can I set it? --HUNRobar 11:32, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

I think you need to post on the old wiki RoboRumble/CnoutryFlag page. But, indeed, I think he may check this page, too. I don't know, let ask Darkcanuck! » Nat | Talk » 12:15, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, I've just written to CountryFlags, hope they realise. ;) Er, one more question: can Robocode use somehow quad-core processors? If yes, how can I configure it? Now I see that only 2 cores are used. And one more. :D I'd like to download nz.jdc.nano.* robots, but the repository can't find bots with such ids. Anyway, if a bot can't be downloaded then it's corrupted and must be removed from rumble, mustn't it? --HUNRobar 16:17, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

New version of robocode do have special command-line option to run multiple bots in parallel to allow more full CPU usage, however this mode should NOT be used for the rumble. The issue is that it can allow one robot using lots of CPU to starve the other bot(s) of CPU and make them skip turns too. For your own testing feel free to use that of course, but it's not safe for rumble until/unless Robocode starts measuring actually CPU time used by the bot thread instead of clock time that the bot spends in a tick (there are some issues that make fixing that difficult though). As far as robots that don't download, you you check the zip files linked here. The downloads in the participants list really should be fixed indeed though. --Rednaxela 23:19, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

I think current robocode use only one cpu to processing bot behavior but it can use another core for other processing such as battlefield redraw, scoring etc. » Nat | Talk » 05:06, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi! Does anybody have nz.jdc.nano.Neophyte* bots? I'd really need them to test against, but I've never been able to download them. Other thing would be my flag. I've posted to countryflags but nothing has happened for weeks. --HUNRobar 14:24, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

• I'll try to make a new or additional zip this evening. --GrubbmGait 15:48, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, that would worth much for me. Many bots like Grinnik 0.7, neophytes, Moebius and others are all corrupted or undownloadable. --HUNRobar 17:43, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

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Hey Darkcanuck, do your server rejected 0 score? See this [1] There should be some mistake somewhere. » Nat | Talk » 09:40, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Have you run battles between them yourself? Your bot has many more 0 scores than that, check the battles against the bots you have very low score. Usually at least in one of the battles you had a 0 score. Maybe for start positions or something you bor can get into a skip turn streak or something like that. --zyx 22:48, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I know my bot may get zero, because it ate at least over 128M just by initializing. Actually, I don't want to run it myself, because my poor notebook need to restart after run it :-) But after two restarts, I've run battle with Memnoch, which I get zero, and I get 61% score. I think my robot are crazy for some unknown reason. » Nat | Talk » 23:59, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I think it has created a black hole in the system :). But if you know that, then I don't understand your question. If one bot gets score 0 why should the battle be rejected? Or am I still misunderstanding something? --zyx 01:55, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

The old servers always reject 0 score. I just ask that why not this server do. Because 100% score will give ELO of POSITIVE_INFINITY, that a reason why old server reject zero score. But, this server have ELO, too! How it calculated? » Nat | Talk » 02:24, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

My server happily accepts zero scores! :) I don't believe that filtering out zeros is fair to bots that don't crash/hang, and it's quite possible for a top bot to win a match against a weaker one without ever being hit. I researched this issue on the old wiki before making this decision, and it appears that the old server rejected zeros to work around bugs in the original client. --Darkcanuck 04:48, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, I believe accepting zero scores just fine when they are due to a buggy bot, HOWEVER in my time with Robocode, zero scores have FAR more frequently been due to bad clients than buggy bots, and bad client results are nasty and not always noticed easily (I believe I have suggested a "suspicious results" page though). --Rednaxela 05:30, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I didn't know that about the old server, but as Darkcanuck pointed out it would be really unfair. DrussGT smashes to ground weak bots, he would never get complete pairings if it rejected them I think. And my current surfing development is actually an effort to make HOT at the very least score 0 always, hopefully other simple targeting systems too. --zyx 05:15, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Some people used to program in a flaw to allow at least one bullet to hit vs. weak bots, in order to keep the score from being thrown away. --Darkcanuck 05:25, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Pairings do complete when zero scores are rejected even without the measure that Darkcanuck mentions. No surfer to date has quite avoided EVERY single HOT bullet fired on it. See here. The highest score is 99.99, with no perfect 100 depite people trying very very hard to get a perfect 100. With the old server rejecting 0 scores, complete pairings always happened still. It didn't take THAT many battles for even the worst the HOT bot to get a lucky shot in. --Rednaxela 05:30, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

That is what we call ImperfectPerfection. Darkcanuck, how you calculate ELO rating? Because zero score result in Double.POSITIVE_INFINITY. One more, it seem that BlackHole get more score from GrubbmGait client than your! » Nat | Talk » 05:41, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I think you have it the wrong way around: an infinite score difference will lead to a predicted score of zero, not a zero score will cause an infinite score difference. It took me a while to wrap my head around this one =) --Skilgannon 08:04, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Oh oh, I wrong, but you still wrong =) Actually, the 100% raw score diff will result in infinity ELO score. !!!! » Nat | Talk » 08:45, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

One more, mybe you try ABC way? Reject on |PBI| > 50 That match result in PBI of -61.8 :-) » Nat | Talk » 05:43, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I can believe you that 100% maybe too much out there, but I won't give up yet :). But there are still situations that would harm the rumble, elvbot.ElverionBot 0.3 disables himself almost always and ap.Frederick 1.1 doesn't fire bullets, against them you need to purposely give them points somehow. Either deplete your energy or make them ram you a bit :P, probably they would be removed from the rumble, but it would kill the fun for at least two persons. --zyx 06:01, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

To address some of the questions above:

• DrussGT currently has 100% scores against 9 other bots; all have more than 1 battle fought (one has 5). The reason no bot has 100% in the WaveSurfingChallenge2K6 is because the battles last much longer than 35 rounds, which increases the odds of getting a lucky shot enormously.
• I haven't implemented the suspicious results page yet, but I think the calculations may be too intense anyway...
• There are no bots in the rumble with POSITIVE_INFINITY scores, so something must be working. ;)
• PBIs of > 50% are possible for decent bots which crash occasionally. If you still have a low number of battles, a crash/zero against a weak bot will skew your rating and give a wider range of PBIs.
• Let me know if you see any strange results -- if they're client-related, there will be more than one. If it's a bot problem, well...

--Darkcanuck 06:11, 26 March 2009 (UTC)