Talk:King maker

Ah, I see what you mean now. The "king-making" references I found were to non-winners intentionally manipulating results to dictate the winner, which is obviously not the case in the RoboRumble. I'm fairly confident DrussGT has the strongest APS in every demographic of RoboRumble participants - low, mid, high-end bots, surfers, Pattern matchers, etc - so simply altering the composition of the rumble would not knock him off his throne. His strength is quite clear and not all that subjective, if you ask me. Only submitting bots with hard-coded behaviors against DrussGT could have an impact, and such a move would probably not go un-noticed and the community as a whole would intervene.

But it is true that with a drastically different RoboRumble population, say only DrussGT's worst 5 matchups =), another bot like Shadow could conceivably be called #1. And it's also reasonable if you want to view results as "a win is a win" - I personally quite like that view, and agree that the APS RoboRumble is more of a shared "challenge" than a direct competition. Though I do consider it a fair challenge, and one in which I still aspire to be #1 again some day. ;)

An important point to make in any scoring system that applies a winner-take-all view of each matchup is that we'd have to significantly alter priority battles to get accurate rankings. For close matchups, you may need 100 or more battles to determine a winner. There really is quite a lot of variance. Given that, we'd probably want to just start a separate participants list with only current and/or strong bots. Or even run a weekly tournament where each match is like best-of-99 or something.

--Voidious 03:48, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

First, thank you for clarifying what you were referring to with that page. Honestly though, I don't believe this is a significant problem in the rumble as it stands. Let me explain why.

Looking over things on the wikipedia link, like Voidious also notices, it appears problems of "king-making" are usually about when weaker opponents have an agenda to selectively hurt/help the score of certain other competitors. In the rumble however, I believe there are no known cases of any robots with such biases/agendas, it is certainly not widespread in any case.

Now, presuming no such dirty play is happening, where could the harm be? Well, if your high ranking bot is performing worse against low ranking bots than another high ranking bot? Is that a case of "outcomes are not dictated by a competitor's own performance"? I may be misunderstanding, but I don't believe it is, because so long as no selective biases are present, it is always possible to work to gain that same performance edge that the other high ranking bot has.

Also as far as competitive innovations, say you have a situation where one high ranking bot has an innovation that allows it to score 80-90% against rambots where most other high ranking bots reliably score in the 60-70% range. Is that not a competitive innovation in Robocode? Means of "king-maker" prevention that round things to win/tie/loss also don't value innovation of that sort, which I believe is a big shame. Is it silly that I consider such matters to be notable/interesting innovations?

Ranking methods that are more immune the low-ranking bots are certainly interesting , indeed valuable, and I believe are quite worth having in the rumble, but I don't see them as objectively better or worse. Both seem like equally valid challenges to me, neither with accute problems.

--Rednaxela 03:53, 15 August 2011 (UTC)