Is there a mistake in Rumble battle staging

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Is there a mistake in Rumble battle staging

Edited by author.
Last edit: 05:00, 22 February 2023

Hi, I just looked at ranking of Vodious Jen

for a bot which is in the rumble for many years, there are quite a lot of opponents with which this bot has less than 5 matches and those are bots which are also in the rumble since forever.

I wonder why match selecting algorithm avoids particular bots. Is it normal?

Beaming (talk)21:19, 19 February 2023
Edited by author.
Last edit: 05:57, 22 February 2023

What do you mean by avoiding particular bots. From the code, LiteRumble selects missing pairings first, then pairings with less battles, etc.

Given enough time, each bot should have similar amount of battles.

Xor (talk)05:46, 21 February 2023

Ups, I posted wrong link to Jen rating, see

I do use LiteRumble to check for my bot improvement (if I run clients anyway, why not update "real" rating). But the issue I report is unrelated to my bot.

Beaming (talk)04:59, 22 February 2023

OK, a thought the missing pairings is related to your bot (which just get updated), but it turns out to be an ancient one.

Xor (talk)07:06, 22 February 2023

If you look at Jen pairing, you will see almost 200 bots, with which it has only one pairing. This is not normal for a bot which is many years in the rumble.

Beaming (talk)06:54, 22 February 2023
  1. We need to find out whether they have only 1 pairings 10 years ago. If so, we could add back the missing pairings from backup.
  2. From the code, "Battles" is merely a counter. If it shows 1 pairing, then there must be data loss unless it's 1 initially.
Xor (talk)07:10, 22 February 2023

as far as I can remember, some time ago (~1 year) there was a hickup which resulted in the strange rumblerankings. Bots had disappeared from the ranking, and when they came back after a battle, their stats against others was either complete or just 1 battle. Just can't find evidence of it on the wiki

GrubbmGait (talk)09:28, 21 February 2023
Beaming (talk)05:03, 22 February 2023

The pairings are already missing in 2021, so it mustn't be resulted from the 2022 hickup

Xor (talk)07:18, 22 February 2023

A strange thing is that most pairings wit 1 battle (of nz.jdc.nano.NeophytePattern 1.1) are either 2020.10 or 2022.3 (which is the exact time the last hiccup happened). This may indicate that the loss of pairings are resulted from restoration process.

Xor (talk)07:44, 22 February 2023

Would it mean that there is a lingering database which has old pairing number? I.e. literumble thinks that there are plenty of pairing (thus not asking for more battles) but it shows in the stats only actual ones.

Beaming (talk)15:56, 22 February 2023

No, you can clearly see from the code that all data is saved into bot.PairingsList, which gets overridden each time a new battle is ran. So if a pairing is missing, the data may not be lost, but if a pairing shows 1 battle, then that's all LiteRumble has.

Skilgannon once said that he had backups. We could ask help from him and do a merge, e.g. take whatever pairing with max battle counter.

Xor (talk)04:09, 23 February 2023

Then it must be a bug in the pairing selection algorithm which some how avoid certain bots. Do we have old data or not is irrelevant, if bot has low pairing that it should be scheduled for a battle, which does not happen with the old bots.

Currently if you put a new bot in the rumble, it usually fighting non stop for at least for a several thousand battles with different opponents. So at same point it would have more battles then old ones like Jen.

For example, the bot which I put a couple day ago already has at least 9 battles with everyone. So I would think Jen or nz.jdc.nano.NeophytePattern would be already scheduled to fight some one for the 2nd battle, but this does not happen.

Beaming (talk)20:27, 23 February 2023

No, it doesn't necessary to have something to do with the pairing selection algorithm. it takes 1000000 battles for everyone to have 1 battle, and 20000000 battles to restore to previous state. Which takes 100+ years on my low-end PC.

Newer bots are selected with priority because they have less than 5000 battles. Old bots with more than 5000 battles aren't selected until everyone had at least 5000 battles. So if we want to stabilize the rumble, we need to prevent updating the rumble too frequently.

I don't think the current algorithm has any problems. Newer bots are more important because someone cares about it. Older bots still have rankings even with only 1 battle per pairing, and would eventually get more battles in the next 100 years.

Xor (talk)04:49, 24 February 2023

I see now. I was not aware of 5000 threshold and priority for a newer bot. Thanks for the explanation.

Beaming (talk)04:58, 24 February 2023